Hazel Gaynor - BEFORE DOROTHY

[00:00] Cindy: Welcome to Thoughts from a Page, a member of the Evergreen Podcasts Network. I'm Cindy Burnett and I am so glad you're here. I personally select and read every book featured on the show so I can bring you thoughtful spoiler free author interviews.

[00:24] Whether you're deciding what to read next or looking for deeper insight after finishing a book, you're in the right place. I hope these conversations will enrich your reading life. In addition to the podcast, I write a monthly column, Buzz Reads, featuring my top five picks for each month which is linked in the Show Notes.

[00:39] If you're looking for the best books to read this summer, don't miss my Summer Reading Guide, also linked in the Show Notes. If you enjoy the show, rating and reviewing it on Apple or Spotify really helps new listeners find me.

[00:51] If you're looking to contribute to the show financially, you can support me on Patreon or with a one-time contribution on PayPal Venmo or buy me a coffee. It takes a long time to grow a show and I continue to find a larger audience thanks to you, my loyal listeners.

[01:05] I am so grateful.

[01:07] Today, Hazel Gaynor joins me to chat about Before Dorothy. I have been reading Hazel's books since she published her very first book about the Titanic over a decade ago.

[01:16] While I'm not a huge fan of The Wizard of Oz, I was eager to see what she did with this story bringing Auntie M's backstory to life. I loved the setting, the time period and everything she did to incorporate various aspects of The Wizard of Oz.

[01:31] So whether you're a fan of The Wizard of Oz or not, I think this is a great read. Hazel is an award winning New York Times, USA Today, Irish Times and internationally bestselling author known for her deeply moving historical novels which explore the defining events of the 20th century.

[01:47] She lives in Ireland with her family.

[01:49] Before Dorothy is her most ambitious novel to date and she gets goosebumps every time she talks about it. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

[01:59] Welcome Hazel. How are you today?

[02:01] Hazel: I'm great Cindy. Thank you so much for inviting me.

[02:03] Cindy: I'm so glad you're here. I love reading your books and I'm really excited to chat about Before Dorothy.

[02:09] Hazel: Thank you. So am I.

[02:11] Cindy: Well, I really enjoyed this one and I have to say up front, I'm not really a big Wizard of Oz fan, but I love your stories and so I was like I'm going to see what she does here and I thought it was wonderful.

[02:20] Hazel: Oh well that's fantastic.

[02:21] I mean my, my hope is very much that whether you come to Before Dorothy as a Wizard of Oz fan or as a Hazel Gaynor fan, or as a historical fiction fan, you will find something within the book that speaks to you.

[02:36] So if I can convert some non Wizard of Oz fans to maybe explore that universe, that's great. But it was always my intention that the book would hold up very much on its own as a compelling,

[02:47] emotional, historical novel, which my readers now know I love to write. So it's great to hear that you enjoyed it.

[02:54] Cindy: Well, and it's not that I don't like The Wizard of Oz. It's just. It's not one of those things that I think, oh, gosh, that is just one of my favorite stories.

[03:01] I've seen it. I've seen the Wiz, I've seen Wicked, you know, all of it, and I enjoy it. It's just not one of those things that I'm like, oh, it's one of my very favorite stories.

[03:07] So I did want to say that up front because I don't want people to think this is only limited to those who love The Wizard of Oz.

[03:12] Hazel: Yeah. And I appreciate that because that's a discussion that myself and my marketing, my publishing team have had. And it really matters to me that it resonates with readers, you know, whichever angle they approach this from.

[03:26] So that's great to hear.

[03:28] Cindy: And it's a story everyone is familiar with, whether you are a huge fan or just enjoy it or haven't even seen it. People know the character. So I think this will appeal to anybody, and it'd be an interesting take on the story.

[03:39] Hazel: That's it. And I think, you know, certain stories just infiltrate, you know, pop culture, don't they? And The Wizard of Oz is, you know, celebrating its 125th anniversary of being published.

[03:50] You know, the book was written in 1900, and, you know, I'm always a fan of the book first. And I think most people are maybe surprised to learn that the movie that we know of, the 1939 movie with Judy Garland, was inspired by a book.

[04:06] And the book was written as a fairy tale. And it's amazing that it has stood the test of time and has been reinvented and reimagined so many times. And we're in a huge phase of reinvention at the moment with the Wicked movies.

[04:19] So it was incredibly timely. And fortunate for me that my interpretation of one of the characters, a very quiet character in some ways in the book, has landed at this sort of time of conversation about The Wizard of Oz universe.

[04:34] If you like. So it's fascinating to have a book that's really in tune with what's happening outside of the book as well.

[04:43] Cindy: I agree. It is definitely very timely. Well, let's back up a bit and have you give me a synopsis of Before Dorothy so those that haven't read it yet know what it's about.

[04:51] Hazel: Yeah. So Before Dorothy is essentially my imagined version of the life of Dorothy’s Auntie Em from The Wizard of Oz,

[05:00] a character who we meet in the original story at the very beginning, at the very end,

[05:06] and it's her life story of essentially,

[05:09] why did Dorothy, a young child,

[05:12] come to live with Emily and her husband on the prairies in Kansas? And as anybody who's read me before will know, I'm really fascinated by putting ordinary people, women particularly, into extraordinary circumstances.

[05:26] And my setting for the book is during the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl of the 1930s.

[05:32] So that was a really interesting period of history for me to set my version of a woman who's very courageous,

[05:40] very pioneering in her own way, but who also has then the added responsibility of caring for her young, orphaned niece. And that's the premise of Before Dorothy.

[05:51] Cindy: And how did you decide to write this book?

[05:54] Hazel: So I actually,

[05:56] way, way back in 2009, before I was a published author, I had started to write a contemporary reimagining of The Wizard of Oz,

[06:04] which was set in Dublin, a play on the Emerald City, the Emerald Isle. And I have about 30,000 words of that book. But I put that book to one side when I started to write what became my debut published historical novel, the Girl who Came Home, which was published in 2012.

[06:22] So my first attempt at a Wizard of Oz reimagining has lingered in a drawer ever since. And a couple of years ago, when I was thinking about and talking about ideas for what would become my 12th published book, I was looking on my bookshelves, picked up a copy of Gregory Maguire's Wicked,

[06:40] which is the origin story of the Wicked Witch of the West, put it back on the shelf and went for a walk.

[06:45] And the name Auntie Em popped into my head. And I've always been fascinated with the idea of a reimagining of a classic or an origin story of a classic character.

[06:56] And Auntie Em literally whispered in my ear, and I stopped and thought, well, who is Auntie Em? Who is Dorothy's Auntie Em and what do we know about her? And I picked up the original book, and there is a line that says,

[07:10] before she came to live on the prairie, she was a young, pretty wife,

[07:13] full of colour, but the years had aged her and taken the colour from her cheeks. And to me, as a historical novelist, that just asked so many questions, you know, what has happened?

[07:25] How did she go to live on the prairie? Why is Dorothy living with them? And it became a very human story.

[07:33] I saw her very clearly and that literally was the spark of the imagination. And I couldn't believe nobody had already written this. You know, I went frantically searching for, has anybody written about Auntie Em?

[07:44] And the answer was no. So it was this incredible gap within a classic story which really spoke to me as a historical novelist and somebody who loves nature. And I always love writing about, you know, people in adversity, people pushing themselves beyond what they think is capable.

[08:00] And all of that seemed to be encapsulated in Auntie Em and then in the setting of the Dust Bowl on the prairies in the 1930s.

[08:08] Cindy: So I'd love to talk a little bit more about both the setting and the time periods. So, as you mentioned, the book is published in 1900 and you said it during the Dust Bowl, which makes perfect sense for everything that's happening.

[08:20] How did you decide to do that?

[08:21] Hazel: Well, a little bit about.

[08:23] There's some belief that although there isn't a defined setting in the original story, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, that L. Frank Baum, had been inspired by living through a previous drought and having connections to farming life, et cetera.

[08:39] So reading some of his life story was certainly an inspiration.

[08:44] Thinking about the period when the MGM, the famous movie that we all know,

[08:50] was first shown, was 1939, which was at the end of this terrible period of drought.

[08:56] So it just all seemed to come together. I was thinking a lot about,

[09:00] you know, periods of hardship, I was thinking a lot about weather.

[09:04] So thinking about another version of the tornado that we all know obviously sweeps up the Gale House and lands Dorothy and Oz, and thinking about that in a different way in these incredibly destructive dust storms, and also thinking about, you know, I'm not writing my book before Dorothy isn't in any way a fairy story.

[09:27] We don't go to Oz. There is no Wicked Witch. It's a very grounded book, it's a very real book. But to think about,

[09:34] you know, sort of a metaphor for storms being a representative of the power of the Wicked Witch and of the Wizard. So it just seemed to work in lots of ways.

[09:43] And the more I researched that period of history, the more it just felt like the right time to set my story for Aunt Em and her period of life with Dorothy before Dorothy imagines going to the Emerald City.

[09:58] Cindy: I agree. And I thought it worked very well. And how about having her from Chicago and from Ireland originally.

[10:04] Hazel: Yeah. So, again,

[10:06] firstly, Chicago, this is where the original book, where L. Frank Baum, lived when he wrote The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, a little nod to that. And to the Windy City.

[10:15] A couple of things there. And then I really thought about,

[10:18] well,

[10:19] a lot of people settling on the prairie obviously were immigrants and obviously living in Ireland.

[10:26] We talk a lot about the Irish diaspora and where Irish people have moved to and settled.

[10:33] So there was a strong connection there. Thinking about somebody leaving their home and the whole question of, there's no place like home, but what if home has to become somewhere else?

[10:44] So thinking about Ireland and its community of emigrants,

[10:49] that really made sense to me as well. And as I said earlier, you know, the play on the Emerald City, the Emerald Isle. And it was really also part of thinking,

[10:58] if this small child, who this real woman has raised,

[11:03] where would she get these fantastical stories? And thinking about a world of,

[11:09] you know, the, like, the little people, the fairy folk that we talk about in Irish mythology and culture. So some of the Irish myths and legends play in through the book in terms of having an influence, perhaps on Dorothy's imagination and her storytelling.

[11:23] So, again, it worked. And obviously, it's where I live. I've lived here for the last 23 years. And it was really lovely for me to be able to encapsulate some of Ireland within this classic fairy story, if you like.

[11:36] Cindy: I was thinking that as I read. Because I know you live in Ireland. And I was like, this really works so well, all the green and everything. And I was like, she got to weave that right into this story that she's already so excited to write.

[11:46] Hazel: That's it. And I think, you know, as a novelist,

[11:49] I mean, the question always comes, how much of yourself is in there, how much of people you know? And I think it's really lovely if you can,

[11:57] you know, subtly weave in a nod to something that's very precious to you or that matters to you and that also works with the story that you're trying to tell.

[12:06] So, yeah, it was lovely to be able to pull all that together.

[12:09] Cindy: Did you just love inhabiting this world? I know you're a huge Wizard of Oz fan. It's something that you've watched many times. Was it just wonderful to spend all this time with these characters?

[12:18] Hazel: Oh, honestly, Cindy, I can't tell you. I mean, every book sort of finds its own way. You Know, some books are hard to write. Some books, we always hope, are those that almost write themselves.

[12:29] I don't think I've ever quite had that experience yet, but it was such a joy to sit at my desk every day and try to find a new way to share this beloved story with people and to imagine things and to take these characters and what we know about them,

[12:47] what we don't know about them.

[12:50] To do my research, I just. I. I still can't quite believe I have written this book, because it. It really does take me right back to my childhood as a little girl growing up in Yorkshire.

[13:01] The movie was always on on Christmas Day, and I've just loved these characters in the story. And I've also obviously loved history and these epic periods of struggle and adversity in history that I'm very drawn to.

[13:14] So it wasn't just sort of immersing myself into this story that I've loved for most of my life. You know, it was also finding the right part of history to put it in.

[13:28] Cindy: I have enjoyed so many of your books, and one thing that I really like about them is that you drop people into whatever story you're telling so immersively,

[13:36] and I just felt like I was on the prairie. But I also loved the time period in Chicago. Went to school in Chicago. Love Marshall Fields. So it was really fun to see all of that brought to life in that time period as well.

[13:47] Hazel: Thank you. And that's so lovely for me to hear. And I. You know, it's really important to me, it always has been with my books, to evoke a really strong sense of place and with the locations in Before Dorothy, of course, we moved from Chicago and the, you know, the life of a sort of vibrant,

[14:05] slightly dangerous city in the 1920s. And we transpose that into a very different landscape in Kansas. And there's also some play there on the transition of black and white to color that we see so famously in the movie that I've hopefully tried to evoke a little bit in how the landscape and the color palette changes as we move location.

[14:27] Yeah. And I think for me,

[14:29] taking a reader to the location as well as to the historical era is really key in helping them understand,

[14:37] you know, where they are as well as when they are.

[14:40] And it was such a sort of harsh and beautiful landscape to see through Emily's eyes.

[14:48] And as I said, I've always been very drawn to the natural world in my own life and also as a novelist. So it was really. I loved writing some of Auntie Em's imagined reflections on her life,

[15:03] trying to understand and come to terms with the prairie and all that. It. It throws in her way such a.

[15:09] Cindy: Harsh life for them. I love the natural world as well, but decided I was very happy that I did not live on the prairie in the 1930s.

[15:17] Hazel: Yeah. And, you know, I think we do tend to romanticize, don't we, some of these places that we hear about or read about. And obviously, you know, don't necessarily know what it's like to live there.

[15:29] So it was really amazing to read lots of accounts of people who have known that life and who lived through the dust storms. I mean, incredible survivor accounts, really, of people who lived through those years of these astonishing dust storms.

[15:44] And it really mattered to me to try and evoke that sense of dirt and dust and dryness through those scenes within Before Dorothy. So, yeah, hopefully readers will.

[15:57] Will be transported back there.

[15:59] Cindy: Absolutely they will. And you mentioned the movie and going from black and white to color. The other thing that you did that I loved was all these little Easter eggs, various aspects from The Wizard of Oz, the yellow brick road, the slippers, the Tin man, the lion.

[16:13] Was that just so interesting to you to figure out how to incorporate those things into the book?

[16:19] Hazel: Yeah. And I just. I'm so excited for readers to find them. And as you know, as we said at the beginning, if you're not looking for the Easter egg,

[16:29] the book will still,

[16:30] you know, read well and will still work. But it was just such fun to.

[16:35] And in. In real ways, you know, think about, well, why would this little girl imagine a tin Man, a scarecrow? Why are they the people she meets along the way?

[16:45] So to place things within her real world,

[16:49] a very raw world that makes sense for her to then imagine. And,

[16:55] you know, little references to either if you're a devotee of the original text, or if you've come to The Wizard of Oz through the movie,

[17:04] slight nod to Wicked,

[17:06] that hopefully readers will feel,

[17:08] you know, oh, this is a little wink, wink at me. Because we both know.

[17:12] We both know what that is. So, yeah, early feedback has definitely reacted well to those. Yeah.

[17:18] Cindy: And again, and you mentioned this. I don't think you have to be a huge fan of The Wizard of Oz to still see these things and be like, oh, yes, okay.

[17:25] I love how she came up with these ideas for how Dorothy might have incorporated those things into her visions.

[17:32] Hazel: Absolutely. So that was always, as I said, the intention that whether you understand the reference or it's just an interesting concept that this little girl finds these things in her life that are precious to her.

[17:46] And,

[17:47] you know, the character of the rainmaker who comes to Kansas, you know, these were real men who moved around the prairie doing during the Dust bowl, promising to use their chemicals and contraptions to summon the rains.

[18:02] You know, that to me, was a fascinating piece of history to explore. And, you know, readers will see how and why that relates to what they understand from The Wizard of Oz or not.

[18:15] You know, in terms of that. It's just part of that real life of experiencing the Dust bowl and some of the things that happened through that period of history.

[18:24] Cindy: It was just so interesting to see that there were characters, individuals who moved around promising things that obviously they really could not deliver.

[18:32] Hazel: Yeah. You know, in the classic,

[18:34] pulling back the curtain and what's real and what's imagined and what's promised and what's unattainable. Yeah. And these sort of,

[18:43] for me, looking at the circus, you know, the traveling carnivals that moved around during this time in American history,

[18:52] how a little bit of magic could help lift people's spirits at a time of real adversity. So that was a very real part of life on the prairies during the Dust bowl.

[19:02] And that obviously, you know, we think about the wizard,

[19:06] this play on magic and power.

[19:09] So there were lots of ways to approach that concept, but in a very real way,

[19:15] very grounded, as I say, you know, before Dorothy. If The Wizard of Oz is a fantastical imagining of life before Dorothy, my intention is that it's all very real and very grounded, but with clear lines back into that fantastical world.

[19:33] Cindy: If you're looking for them,

[19:35] definitely you include both a historical note and an author's note, which I always really appreciate,

[19:42] because I like to see where your ideas come from, your research. But that was very interesting to me. Did it take a while to compile those?

[19:49] Hazel: Yeah. And I think,

[19:52] particularly with a historical novel, I think as a reader of historical novels, I really love to step out of the book then and understand the author's entry point. You know, so how did they come to write this?

[20:06] And where did they go to research it? And I find that fascinating. And often readers will say to me,

[20:12] oh, you know, I hadn't heard about this thing or that thing.

[20:16] And I read your author's note and some of your sources, and I went and read more widely around the subject. So, you know, historical novels often don't end at the end of the story.

[20:28] They are often a springboard for people wanting to go and find out a little more. So I always.

[20:34] I always do Take a lot of time and care with my author's note and the historical note, because I know from feedback that readers really, really like them and that it is part of the reading experience as a whole.

[20:46] So, yeah, it really matters to me to do them.

[20:49] Cindy: I also spend a lot of time on Google when I'm reading historical novels like yours, just looking up some of these things. That is one of my favorite things about historical fiction, is that I learn so much while I'm reading a very engaging and compelling story.

[21:01] Hazel: Yes. And I think that's why historical readers, historical fiction readers are such advocates of their genre, because it is that reading experience that, you know, we all read for entertainment distraction.

[21:15] But there's something else within historical novel. It's almost educational, but in a very subtle, gentle way that obviously you never want to feel that you're being educated by the author,

[21:26] but it.

[21:27] It unlocks something that you then want to go and read more about.

[21:31] So, you know, I have had a lot of people, early readers, say, oh, I wanted to go and read more about these rainmakers that moved around the prairies, or more about the, you know, Black Sunday, which was one of the most devastating dust storms through the Dust bowl era.

[21:46] So,

[21:47] yeah,

[21:48] it's great if that happens, that you feel that your story, then the story lives on because people go and start talking about aspects of it or learning more about it outside of your words, which is.

[22:00] Which is brilliant.

[22:01] Cindy: Definitely.

[22:02] Well, let's talk about the title and the cover. And you have had issues with titles and covers in the past in terms of the titles not being the same for a particular book or covers being different, but this time around,

[22:13] it's going to be the same across the board. Is that right?

[22:16] Hazel: Yes. Hooray.

[22:18] Yeah, it's.

[22:20] It doesn't always work. You know, different markets, different readers, different publicists have different ideas for what works. But with this book,

[22:30] it's fantastic to have one title, the same imagery on the cover. And I think it all works so well. And the title before Dorothy wasn't the first title. My working title for the book was simply Auntie Em.

[22:45] And it took a little while for my editor and the team in the US and my editor and the team in the UK to figure out what the title was going to be.

[22:55] And that worked for both markets and that worked in terms of bringing readers in who maybe get the reference to this being a Wizard of Oz,

[23:05] reimagining or not.

[23:08] So there was a lot to work on,

[23:09] but it now feels like there could never have been any other title.

[23:13] It works perfectly. And the cover is very evocative of the prairie,

[23:19] you know, this big sky with a suggestion of something that may be coming.

[23:25] And I just feel it works really well. So it's always really lovely when you feel everybody's happy. And it just represents the book perfectly.

[23:33] Cindy: We were talking before we started recording that one of my favorite of your books, When We Were Young and Brave, had a different title in the UK and a vastly different cover.

[23:41] And that. That really had caused some confusion for readers, myself included, because I remember I had just read When We Were Young and Brave, and then all of a sudden I'm like, she has another book already.

[23:50] And then I realized it was the same book they had just done, vastly different titles and covers. And that had to confuse people a little bit.

[23:57] Hazel: Yeah, it does. I mean, it's. It's not as. As rare as it might sound. I. I often, you know, see authors on their social media accounts explaining, you know, this is the book for this market, but this is the same book, it just has a different name.

[24:10] So, yeah,

[24:12] it can be confusing for readers. So it's really great when you're simply promoting one book because, of course, on social media,

[24:21] whether you're based in the US or the UK or anywhere in the world,

[24:25] you can still see what an author is sharing or a publisher is sharing. So it just takes away any of that complication.

[24:31] And I don't have to trip myself up over different titles depending on who I'm talking to. So,

[24:37] yeah, I love this title. Before Dorothy, it just. It. It just lands perfectly. So I'm delighted with the end result. Yeah, good.

[24:44] Cindy: Well, Hazel, before we wrap up, what have you read recently that you really liked?

[24:48] Hazel: Well, gosh, how long have we got exactly? Well, I've always. Several recommendations.

[24:54] Interestingly, I just read. So Gregory Maguire, who wrote Wicked,

[24:59] recently, last month released an origin story of the origin story, so Elphie, which is the imagined childhood of Elphaba, who is his version of the Wicked Witch of the West.

[25:10] So if anybody is interested in adding another book to their wizard of Oz shelf, Elfie, I would recommend it will just please you in all of the ways that anything into that universe will from a historical fiction point of view.

[25:25] I was very lucky to read an early copy of Kristin Harmel's forthcoming historical,

[25:31] The Stolen Life of Colette Marceau, which is a beautiful,

[25:35] as always with Kristen, very emotional, very vibrant story of jewel thieves set in Paris,

[25:42] which also plays a little bit on a very classic English legend of Robin Hood. So that's one to look Forward to.

[25:49] And I also read a beautiful nonfiction book recently called Raising Hare by Chloe Dalton,

[25:55] which is about somebody who literally found a leveret, a baby hair in lockdown and raised it. And it's a lot about how that becomes a bit of a metaphor for her own life.

[26:07] And again,

[26:08] nature really speaks to me, so a little bit of a palate cleanser. You know, nonfiction can often be a nice break from lots of fiction, so I'd highly recommend that one as well.

[26:19] Cindy: I know my listeners are saying Cindy is jumping up and down because Raising Hare is one of my favorite books I have read this year. I've interviewed Chloe and I've been telling everyone to read it, and so many people come back and say, that book is just beautiful.

[26:32] I mean, I just love that book so much.

[26:35] Hazel: So beautiful. That's amazing. I had no idea. So this was meant to be. Yeah, it's. It's just a beautiful book. So, yeah, that's wonderful.

[26:43] Cindy: Kristin Harmel's book is on my list as well. I just haven't gotten to it yet. But I love the cover for it.

[26:48] Hazel: Oh, it's stunning.

[26:50] And, you know, I always feel I'm in such safe hands with Kristin,

[26:54] and she's also such a generous author. You know, she's very incredibly kind with her time and reading and supporting other authors.

[27:02] She's just a wonderful human being as well as an author. So I just adored the book and I always know I will with her books. So, yeah, highly recommend that one.

[27:10] Cindy: Okay, good. Well, thank you so much, Hazel, for taking the time to come to the Thoughts From a Page podcast. It was lovely to connect with you again.

[27:17] Hazel: Thank you so much for the time.

[27:21] Cindy: Thank you so much for listening to my podcast. I would love to connect with you on Instagram or Facebook, where you can find me at @thoughtsfromapage. If you enjoy the show and have a moment to rate it or subscribe to it, wherever you listen to your podcasts,

[27:33] I would really appreciate it. It makes a huge difference. And please tell all of your friends about Thoughts from a Page. Word of mouth does wonders to help the show grow.

[27:42] The book discussed in this episode can be purchased at my Bookshop storefront and the link is in the show notes. I hope you'll tune in next time.