Nathalia Holt - THE BEAST IN THE CLOUDS

[00:00] Cindy: Welcome to Thoughts from a Page, a member of the Evergreen Podcasts Network. I'm Cindy Burnett, and I am so glad you're here. I personally select and read every book featured on the show so I can bring you thoughtful spoiler-free author interviews.

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[01:05] I am so grateful.

[01:07] Today, Nathalia Holt joins me to chat about the Beast in the Clouds. I thoroughly enjoy stories about animals, about being outdoors, about excursions.

[01:17] Everything about this book made it the perfect fit for me.

[01:20] It's a fascinating tale about Teddy Roosevelt's sons and how they discovered for the Western world the panda bear. Nat is a New York Times bestselling author of Rise of the Rocket Girls, Wise Gals, the Queens of Animation and Cured.

[01:34] She lives with her husband and their two daughters in Pacific Grove, California. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

[01:42] Welcome Nat. How are you today?

[01:43] Nathalia: I'm doing well.

[01:45] Cindy: I'm so glad you're here. I thought the Beast in the Clouds was so fascinating and I cannot wait to chat about it.

[01:51] Nathalia: Oh, I'm glad. I'm just excited about this book and I love talking about it.

[01:55] Cindy: I bet you do, because I'm sure you spent an incredible amount of time researching just based on everything that's included in the book.

[02:02] So to get it out into the world must be so thrilling.

[02:05] Nathalia: It is. I spent many years researching and writing this book and there were several points where I thought it wasn't going to happen. This book wasn't going to get published. It wasn't easy to find a publisher for the book.

[02:19] But I care about this topic so much and I really immersed myself in the Roosevelts and in this expedition and it's an important story. I'm glad to talk about it today.

[02:30] Cindy: It is an important story and it's something that I knew nothing about on so many levels, the Roosevelt brothers, that it took so long for the Western world to see an actual panda, just there were so many aspects to it, the conservation movement.

[02:43] So I can't wait to talk about all of it. But before we do that, would you just give me a quick synopsis of the Beast in the Clouds?

[02:49] Nathalia: So this book follows a 1928-1929 expedition that the two eldest sons of President Theodore Roosevelt took in the Himalayas in China and Tibet. And they were searching for the giant panda, which, as hard as it is to believe, at that time,

[03:07] many people, even scientists, did not believe existed.

[03:11] And in fact, it is the last large mammal that was unknown to science at that time.

[03:17] And so at this point in the late 1920s, when the Roosevelts are seeking the panda, there's already been a decade of Western explorers that have traveled to China in search of this animal, and everyone's come up empty handed.

[03:30] And so really, no one expects the Roosevelts to be successful. They're a small team, they have a few scientists,

[03:37] and in some ways they are underprepared.

[03:40] But what they find and what they accomplish ends up being a transformative journey, not just for them, but really for science and for how we approach endangered animals.

[03:51] Cindy: I find that mind boggling. That's not even 100 years ago. And that the giant panda still had not been seen by so many people.

[03:58] Nathalia: It is crazy and it says a lot about what's happening in China at that time. Of course, the panda is a very rare mammal. It hides in these forests. So little was known about it that many people thought it would be an aggressive beast.

[04:14] The Roosevelts went on this expedition thinking that the panda would be a combination of a polar bear and a black bear. They were expecting to be attacked by this animal, which is hard to believe.

[04:24] Cindy: Now because you think of the panda bear as so gentle, this gentle giant and everything we associate with it now. It was really interesting to learn that.

[04:33] Nathalia: You can imagine how shocking it was for them and so to read their writings about what it was like to learn what the panda actually was in contrast to their expectations.

[04:45] It was so interesting to piece that together and to see how their experience changed them as men and as scientists.

[04:53] Cindy: And how it changed the world of conservation, which to me was the most interesting part. And I can't wait to talk about that. But before we do that, how did you learn about this expedition and then how did you decide to devote so much time and energy to writing about it?

[05:05] Nathalia: 

[05:06] I came across this story in an unusual way. It's not one that has been written about before. Not much has really ever been said about this expedition since the 1920s.

[05:17] But while I was researching my last book,

[05:20] which is called Wise Gals, and it's a book about the history of the CIA and about the early years of American intelligence in World War II,

[05:28] and while I was researching that, I was looking into Kermit Roosevelt, who worked as a CIA chief in the Middle East.

[05:35] And the thing about researching the Roosevelts is that they all have the same name. And so it gets really complicated. They're all Theodore Roosevelt or Kermit Roosevelt or Eleanor Roosevelt or Quentin Roosevelt.

[05:47] And so I was trying to piece together Kermit Roosevelt's experience in World War II and parse it with that of his father, who also served in World War II.

[05:57] And while I was doing that, I ended up learning about this expedition. And it just immediately grabbed my interest because it was so surprising, it seemed so strange that nobody knew that pandas were real.

[06:09] That there was actually a debate in the scientific community in the west about whether pandas were a real animal 

[06:16] Cindy: The mythology that surrounded them at the time.

[06:19] Nathalia: Exactly. That there would be so much unknown and so much unknown about this part of the world as well.

[06:25] As the Roosevelts explore China and Tibet, they discover many animals, 19 new species they're constantly coming across.

[06:35] Animals that nobody's ever seen, have never been described. And I think what is so poignant is that many of those species are.

[06:42] Already gone today,

[06:43] Cindy: including the one that was named after them. Right. They brought it back and it was named after them, but nobody's seen it since. Is that correct?

[06:51] Nathalia: That's right. Yeah. There's one animal, a barking deer, that was named after the Roosevelts,

[06:57] and it was really only seen on that trip. It hasn't been documented since.

[07:01] And I think that just goes to show how much there is in this wilderness that you can have all of these animals that are discovered and then just seem to disappear.

[07:11] Just shows how much treasure is contained in these forests.

[07:15] Cindy: It's just wild to think about. They head out on this expedition looking for the panda bear. That in and of itself is interesting.

[07:22] But then they find 19 other species as well. Kind of mind boggling in today's world.

[07:27] Nathalia: It is.

[07:28] And I talk in the book about how all of these species in China, how we're still discovering them today, there's still new species that are being explored and 

[07:38] How fragile this part of the world is, why these protections are important for forests, particularly in China and Tibet.

[07:46] Cindy: Well, and everywhere else, too. We just traveled to Africa in February,

[07:50] and I felt like so much of what we experienced there in terms of the way animals were handled and discovered and the conservation efforts now mimicked what I was reading about in your book.

[08:00] And so I do think it's happening all over the world in a similar vein. But there are so many animals out there and they do need to be protected. And I definitely want to talk some about that.

[08:11] Nathalia: Great. Yeah. No, I think, what's really interesting to me is that there was this philosophy at the time of the Roosevelts that in order to study animals that are endangered,

[08:23] you have to kill them and preferably an entire family of them.

[08:27] And that just seems cruel and almost insane by our standards today. It's hard to imagine scientists going out into the wilderness and purposefully killing endangered animals,

[08:39] but that was the thinking at the time when the Roosevelts were going out to find the panda.

[08:44] And what happens in the wake of this expedition is really what changes that in science. It is very much their experience and 

[08:53] Their work after this expedition that ends up shifting the mindset of scientists, particularly towards endangered animals.

[09:01] Cindy: It truly does seem impossible that the way that they were studying them was to shoot an entire family of panda bears and bring them back. Like, we just can't even conceive of that today.

[09:11] But you make a valid point toward the end of your book, which is, I'm sure there are all sorts of things we are doing today that people in the future will be like, what was wrong with those people?

[09:19] Nathalia: Absolutely.

[09:21] You know, this is our goal, is to keep getting better,

[09:24] to improve how we do things, to enlarge our perspective. I'm sure in the future people will look back and say, wow, what were those guys doing? They were out there destroying the planet.

[09:36] I'm sure that's the perspective they will have as well. It's always easy to look back and blame those in history.

[09:42] And so it's important, I think, to give the proper context for what was happening in the world during this expedition and why things needed to change.

[09:50] Cindy: Well, and what they knew, what they were comfortable with, and how it worked at the time.

[09:55] And there's always a learning curve, always a process that will change over time. But that had to be interesting to put yourself back in their shoes and write about how everything was happening in 1928 and 1929.

[10:08] Nathalia: Absolutely. You know, for this book,

[10:10] I was very fortunate in that I was able to get material from many different sources.

[10:16] So I was able to get both the letters and journals of the Roosevelts, but also all of the journals and writings from other members of the expedition as well. And so I include their perspective.

[10:28] And this really helped because it allowed me to piece together events that happened from multiple perspectives. And it gave me a lot of confidence in what was being said and what was happening.

[10:38] And so every time that I report dialogue that I have these scenes in the book, they're all based on what has been documented by the explorers themselves.

[10:47] And I was particularly proud to include the experience of Ty Jack Young, who was a young man. He's only 19 when this expedition begins. He's a student at NYU,

[10:59] and his mother is from China. His father is from San Francisco.

[11:04] He himself was born in Hawaii, so he has this fractured identity.

[11:09] He ends up joining the Roosevelts as an interpreter and a naturalist on the trip and being able to include interviews that were done with him in the 1990s that I was able to obtain,

[11:22] as well as his unpublished autobiography gives so much information for this expedition as well. It was wonderful to have his point of view because he has a different way of seeing the Roosevelts.

[11:34] He is very much in awe of them. And his relationship with the Roosevelts was one that was very surprising to me.

[11:40] Cindy: It was surprising to me that they were the two that were leading this expedition, and we haven't even really talked about that yet. But I'm also curious how you came across these materials.

[11:50] Nathalia: It always is difficult to find materials like this because, you know, it's one thing to get documents from the museum, which I did. I got many documents from the Field Museum, as well as the National Archives, the Library of Congress, all have all kinds of materials that are relevant for this expedition.

[12:08] But to be able to get diaries,

[12:12] letters, and interviews that have been done gives even more detail and even more ability to reenact scenes and create dialogue from what is actually being said. And so that's not easy to do.

[12:26] And so that was all obtained from Jack Young's daughter, Jolly Young, who was very helpful in giving me his material.

[12:33] And then I was able to get other material from other family members,

[12:37] as well as track down archives that had letters and diaries, particularly for Herbert Stevens.

[12:44] And then Sudham Cutting was another naturalist on the trip,

[12:47] who I was able to get his writings from the expedition as well. And so so many different perspectives. It really allows the book to have a lot of detail,

[12:56] which was important to me. I wanted readers to feel like they're there. You're on the trail, you're Part of this expedition, you know, what it feels like, what the food tastes like,

[13:06] what those moments in the mountains are really like.

[13:09] Cindy: And the other aspect to that is all of the fabulous photos. I normally listen to nonfiction, but I didn't have your book on audio, so I read it, which I was thrilled that I did, because you have these wonderful, wonderful old photos that I just pored over, and I was curious how you came across those and then were able to get the rights for them.

[13:27] Nathalia: Fortunately, this is an expedition that took place in 1920s, late 1920s, so some of them were already out of copyright. Others I was able to obtain the rights from the Library of Congress or the Field Museum.

[13:40] And then I was able to, you know, obtain all these photographs from Herbert Stevens and from Suitum Cutting.

[13:46] And it does. It really puts you there on the trail. You can see what they looked like.

[13:50] And it's. It's fun. In addition,

[13:52] I also have some videos that were taken on the trail by Suitum Cutting, which is so fun. You know, of course, you can't include a video, unfortunately, in a book, but I highly suggest you go hop over to my Instagram and take a look at some of the videos I posted there,

[14:07] because it's really something to get to see videos from that era and be on the trail with them.

[14:13] Cindy: Okay, I'm going to do that as soon as we're done because I just thought the photos alone were so engaging and pulled me right in. I mean, your descriptions did a wonderful job.

[14:23] But then when you actually could see them in the snow and the rugged landscape and some of these buildings, all of it, truly, I just kept looking at them over and over again.

[14:32] I thought it was really interesting. I was glad you had all those photos.

[14:35] Nathalia: Oh, good. Yeah, the videos are fun as well, because there is one that I have that has the Roosevelt brothers just relaxing, reading books.

[14:44] And that, of course, is a big part of the story. They love to read on the trail and they read Jane Austen and they love Jane Eyre. All of these books that you wouldn't necessarily expect them to be reading on the trail, but were important to them.

[14:59] Cindy: I love Jane Austen, so I actually like the inclusion of that so much. But I agree with you on video because the movement and the way they hold themselves and just everything that's happening, you can't really capture all of that in a photo.

[15:10] So I can't wait to check out the videos.

[15:12] Nathalia: Great.

[15:13] Cindy: We have this wonderful Frida Kahlo exhibit here in Richmond right now, and they have all these videos of her and it's just making me think, as you say, that it does give you a different perspective than a still image.

[15:23] Nathalia: It does. It's interesting, isn't it, when you're able to include things like that. Although I will say that there is nothing quite like reading what the actual experience is like. It does take you there in a way that's different than video or photos, but is in your mind.

[15:40] Cindy: I agree with that completely.

[15:43] So you talk a little bit about your research. There must have been so much that you learned that you could not include.

[15:50] Was it hard to decide what should go in and what shouldn't?

[15:54] Nathalia: It was very difficult. It was very hard. At one point, this book was twice its current length.

[16:00] And it was hard for me because I loved to include all of the details and it just couldn't be done. The book would be way too long.

[16:07] And in addition,

[16:08] I wanted to keep this book shorter than my previous books because I felt like there's a certain pacing that's important when you're dealing with an expedition and when you're dealing with events that took place over a year.

[16:21] And so I really wanted the reader to feel like they were being propulsed on this journey with the Roosevelts. And that meant not getting too distracted by plants and animals and people,

[16:33] and especially the beginning of the book. Originally, I had a lot of background on how they prepared for the trail.

[16:41] And there were just so many great moments I loved. There's this one scene where Jack Young is at the Field Museum in Chicago, and he's doing all of his training to get ready to learn science.

[16:50] And he's so into it. He's so excited.

[16:53] He has lunch with the mummies during the day,

[16:56] and it's just so fun. I love those seeds. It was so hard to cut them. And his whole journey to China I had to cut. As well as the Roosevelts’ journey.

[17:04] There are so many moments that were very difficult, but that's always the tough part.

[17:11] Cindy: And it helps inform your writing. I mean, it is a bummer. I'm sure that you've taken all the time to write this and then it comes out, but still, it's a part of your process for getting everything onto the page.

[17:22] Nathalia: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think there is a lot of value to starting a book on the trail so that you're right there with them from the beginning.

[17:30] And some of that beginning context is interesting, but it might not be interesting for a lot of readers. It's interesting for me,

[17:37] but I think for most people, you kind of just want to get started, you want to get going.

[17:41] Cindy: I get that. Well, let's talk about conservation. So after they discovered the panda bear, or at least discovered it for the Western world, that sent all sorts of other people that direction, wanting to see the panda bear, wanting to shoot it.

[17:53] Let's talk about how that sparked the modern conservation movement and what resulted.

[17:59] Nathalia: So these are the unintended consequences of this expedition. And the Roosevelts, after they come back, after they present the panda, they're getting ready this museum exhibit,

[18:10] and they now publish the map so that people can now find where the panda is in China.

[18:16] And this immediately incites all of these big game hunters to go after the panda.

[18:22] It's hard to think about this today,

[18:24] but at the time,

[18:26] this is just something that a lot of big game hunters wanted to do. Here you have this incredibly rare mammal. It has a beautiful coat, and they want to go kill it.

[18:35] And for the Roosevelts,

[18:37] this was just devastating. This is not what they had intended at all. And of course, the panda wasn't at all what they expected.

[18:44] This wasn't a fierce polar bear that was set to kill them.

[18:48] This was what they called a gentleman.

[18:51] It was a bear that was mild, that wasn't aggressive.

[18:55] And they had a lot of feelings about this. And so not only do you have all of these expeditions that are now going to kill the panda, but you also end up having a number of expeditions that are going to steal cubs that they're bringing back to zoos in the United States.

[19:09] And this becomes a big industry because you can get a lot of money for a cub that's being brought back to the US and there's one scene in the book where the Roosevelts are sitting in a hotel room with Ruth Harkness, who's a socialite who brought a panda cub,

[19:25] the first panda cub, back to New York, and she is auctioning off to see which zoo it's going to go to.

[19:31] And the Roosevelts are beside themselves in their writings. It is so clear that they are horrified that this is actually happening and that they have caused this.

[19:40] And at one point,

[19:42] someone in the room asked Ted Roosevelt,

[19:45] what do you think will happen to this cub eventually? Do you think it'll become stuffed and go next to your specimens in the Field Museum in Chicago?

[19:53] And he says, quote, I'd sooner stuff my own son.

[19:57] And so it's really these unintended consequences. It's all of these expeditions that go to kill pandas that changes the Roosevelts and makes them realize that what they've done is horrible.

[20:08] And they end up spending many years afterwards trying to atone for this and trying to change the laws. And what we see particularly is with Kermit Roosevelt, because at this time, there is very little protection for endangered animals.

[20:22] And so he ends up taking positions in a few different organizations where he really works with diplomats in China and in the United States to change the laws and to protect pandas.

[20:36] And he does this for other animals as well. And both of the brothers are forever changed by this expedition. After this, they no longer go on hunting journeys.

[20:46] They never want to hunt another panda. It's. It really changes who they are fundamentally as people.

[20:52] And we really see it in their actions where they devote themselves to changing the laws for pandas and for other animals. And this, this ends up altering much of how science is performed because it ends up being that people can see it's human action 

[21:09] That is causing these pandas to be killed. It's not just nature's decision.

[21:15] And so it ends up having big implications for how science works moving forward and for conservation efforts.

[21:22] Cindy: Again, I mentioned going to Africa before, and that part of the story reminded me of Dian Fossey and the mountain gorillas, because we went to Rwanda and it was a similar thing.

[21:32] Once people started trying to kidnap the gorillas, bring them back to zoos, use them for furniture, all these horrible things.

[21:40] She saved them. And I felt like this story was very similar. You have these people who understand how important these animal species are. Because you talk about the panda. I think it's like an umbrella animal is maybe what you called it, but that these animals aren't just alone in their system,

[21:55] that they impact everything else around them and how relevant or how important it is to have them staying alive and for future generations and for the world around them. And I was glad to see that the Roosevelts understood that.

[22:09] Nathalia: Now, of course, it seems obvious. The pandas are a symbol for conservation. It's the literal symbol for the World Wildlife Federation.

[22:19] Cindy: Right.

[22:20] Nathalia: But that happened because of this expedition.

[22:23] It's really because of how they were introduced to the US and because of the Roosevelt's actions and after this expedition took place that we got to where we are today.

[22:31] Cindy: And isn't it crazy that people don't know that? Or at least I didn't know that. And I feel like I've never heard anybody else talk about it.

[22:39] Nathalia: It is interesting, especially I think pandas are such sweet animals. Oh, I just love pandas. And I think that's how most people feel it's easy for us to see them as they are today and how they're viewed today by our modern society.

[22:54] But

[22:55] That wasn't a given.

[22:56] There was a real reckoning that happened that made pandas what they are and gave them the symbolism they have today.

[23:04] Cindy: This is kind of a silly analogy.

[23:06] The other thing that all of that made me think about are these Instagrammers who go out and film on the edge of some rare location that is endangered or has, you know, tundra or something that you 

[23:17] Don't want disturbed. And suddenly thousands of people are showing up at these locations.

[23:21] And I think there are unintended consequences from people's actions. And the Roosevelts felt it. And I think we're seeing that happening sometimes today with social media.

[23:30] Nathalia: I think that's so true.

[23:31] It's easy for us to not think about what will happen in the future.

[23:36] It's much more difficult to have that larger perspective about what this will mean and why places need to be protected.

[23:42] And especially for pandas, I think, we all get so excited to see them in zoos and to have them as part of our popular culture. But I put real stress in the book about how important it is that they're protected in their wild environments.

[23:56] And it's something that we probably don't think about enough.

[23:59] Cindy: I'm not sure I'd really thought about it at all, because obviously that's been in the news more recently, because the pandas left DC now they're back in DC.

[24:07] So panda diplomacy is an interesting conversation, which I'd like to have, but also, I just had not thought about what their natural environment was like, and in terms of having to make sure it needed to be protected and how few pandas there are, I'm not sure I really knew that either.

[24:23] Nathalia: Yes, it's interesting now that there has been more research,

[24:25] and I talk some about what happened in the 1980s and 1990s and some of the low points for panda conservation and now how the species has bounced back and what that also means for other animals that live in these forests.

[24:40] And so it is interesting to look at what that means, why we protect animals in their wild places.

[24:47] And for pandas, there's been a lot of research that shows that habitat fragmentization.

[24:53] So when you have habitats that have been broken up by deforestation and other developments, it really affects the species.

[25:02] And so pandas are interesting because they're one of those animals we can look at that were endangered and now have bounced back, and we can look at why that is, what happened, what protections made that possible.

[25:14] It's something that can serve as a blueprint for many species.

[25:18] Cindy: And I love that you talk about in the book that they're maybe an umbrella species. Is that the term that you used?

[25:24] Nathalia: Yes. Yeah. I talk about in the book how protections for pandas have really influenced so many other species and protect many other species.

[25:35] Not all of them. Some of them have still really struggled. And I talk about that in the book as well.

[25:41] But having these protections and preserving habitat can have an impact not just on pandas, but on many different plants and animals.

[25:49] Cindy: And I just think it's always important for people to understand that. That you're not just pulling one animal out of a system,

[25:54] but that many other things are impacted by the loss of one species.

[25:59] Nathalia: Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's helpful to have one species that people can rally behind and want to protect,

[26:06] and then that can tell us a lot about how to protect other species and how to keep habitats safe and healthy.

[26:15] Cindy: Absolutely. So you said it was a little difficult to find a home for this book.

[26:19] Nathalia: It was.

[26:21] You can imagine this is kind of an unusual book. It's a book about an expedition for a panda. The Roosevelts are in it. There's a lot of other people in it.

[26:31] It wasn't easy to find a publisher and an editor that really believed in the story. And I feel so lucky that I was able to publish this book. It certainly wasn't easy.

[26:42] Cindy: I think that we're seeing slowly more and more of these type of books, so I'm glad somebody did take a shot at it.

[26:48] Nathalia: It's important for us to look at stories that haven't been told before.

[26:52] I mean, I read a wide range of fiction and nonfiction,

[26:56] and I love when you have a book that has a story that's completely new, that really hasn't been written about before, and that gives you a new perspective on things that are happening now.

[27:06] I think that is just so valuable.

[27:09] Cindy: I agree with that. And I particularly like stories that are set a while ago that I don't know much about, but that are still impacting our world today, which I think is what makes your book so relevant.

[27:18] Nathalia: I agree. Yeah. It's interesting when you can look at figures from history.

[27:24] These are men and women that were exploring a hundred years ago,

[27:28] and yet their experiences and what they found is still relevant today.

[27:33] Cindy: Absolutely. And the conservation aspects particularly. Well, what surprised you the most when writing this one?

[27:38] Nathalia: There were a few surprises, I think,

[27:41] in the beginning. What was most surprising for me was just that the panda was this mythical creature that so many people did not believe existed. That just seemed crazy to me.

[27:52] Cindy: I agree.

[27:54] Nathalia: Really, it just blew my mind.

[27:56] And then I think the real surprise, though, as I was writing the book,

[28:01] was the Roosevelts’ relationship with Jack Young.

[28:04] I was very surprised at how they became friends.

[28:08] There's really no reason for the Roosevelts to have become close friends with Jack Young.

[28:13] He is the interpreter on the trip.

[28:16] And in so much correspondence, you can see that many people expect little from him. They do not think that he's going to be of particular value on this expedition. And he proves them all wrong.

[28:27] And he ends up having this very close friendship, as evidenced by the interviews that I included with Jack Young, as well as all of the letters that went between them.

[28:38] And the Roosevelts even funded an expedition for Jack Young. And up until their deaths, they were very close and that was very interesting to me. It wasn't what I expected.

[28:50] I think when you look at the sons of a famous man like President Theodore Roosevelt, do you sort of expect them to be entitled and perhaps not always the most thoughtful towards others, especially someone like Jack Young, and that just wasn't the case at all.

[29:05] Cindy: That's interesting, because I know a lot more about Alice Roosevelt than I knew about them. And I knew she was kind of one of those rebel figures, so I guess I would have thought they might be a little bit that way, too.

[29:16] Nathalia: Yeah, it's. It's interesting when you read about their history and learn more about them,

[29:21] because they certainly have so much of their father and they learned so much of their values from their father. But how they acted during that time and how they acted to members of their expedition,

[29:32] it is very much in line with their father's way of exploring. And it's different than many other people would have done an expedition during that time in the 1920s.

[29:44] Cindy: Definitely. Well, I love the cover. How did your cover come about?

[29:47] Nathalia: Oh, I love the cover. So there's an artist at One Signal.

[29:52] Her name's Danielle Mazzella De Bosco. And it's just a beautiful cover.

[29:57] It's so pretty with the panda.

[29:59] One thing that was important to me is that originally the cover had the Roosevelt brothers in suits and just looking very clean.

[30:08] And I felt very strongly that they needed to be as they looked on the trail. And so that's something I really pushed for, and I'm glad I did, because I think it makes

[30:17] the cover work better

[30:19] Cindy: I agree. I think it would have been a little random. If they were sitting there in suits.

[30:25] Nathalia: It's better in their beards.

[30:26] Cindy: Yes, exactly. And just like. They look like they've just come back, you know that that's the look you want.

[30:32] Nathalia: Yeah, I agree.

[30:33] Cindy: What about the title?

[30:34] Nathalia: So the title is.

[30:36] That's a tough one, actually, because I struggled a lot with titles. Titles are always hard, aren't they? It's so tough to find a title that really works for a book.

[30:45] And this is not the original title I had. And so there was a lot of debate. You know, it's tough when you're an author. You don't always get a say in titles or covers.

[30:54] Those are all things that the publisher really gets the final say in.

[30:59] Yeah, so the title was kind of a tough one for me. It's tough to call the panda a beast. We don't really think of pandas as beasts,

[31:07] but it is true that it is how the panda was referred to at that time. So when the Roosevelts came back, the New York Times called the panda a rare beast from Tibet.

[31:17] And it’s a bit jarring, I feel like, with how we think of pandas today,

[31:22] but it's also a bit true. For the time I guess it was.

[31:27] Cindy: Just thinking of a beast, like a large animal, not like a terrible thing.

[31:33] Nathalia: Yes, there is that. It doesn't have to be a terrible thing. It can be a large animal. And I feel like there can be some more meaning in the title, too.

[31:41] Like the beast isn't necessarily the panda as well. There's different ways to look at it and different meanings you can take from it as you're reading the book.

[31:49] Cindy: I agree with that completely. Well, Nat, before we wrap up, what have you read recently that you really liked?

[31:54] Nathalia: Oh, I love reading nonfiction, and I read a ton of it. And one of the books I've really enjoyed is a book called Palace of Deception: Museum Men and the Rise of Scientific Racism.

[32:06] It's by Darrin Lunde,

[32:07] and he wrote a book called The Naturalist, which is a really interesting history of Theodore Roosevelt. And in this, his newest book, which comes out this fall, it's just fantastic.

[32:18] It is such a surprising read to me. It takes you really deep into the history of the American Museum of Natural History in New York City.

[32:26] And it's written by somebody who knows it well, who has worked for the museum for a long time, who has access to all those records.

[32:34] It's just surprising. It's a great story.

[32:36] Another book I've really enjoyed is called On a Mission: The Smithsonian history of U.S. Women Astronauts.

[32:45] It's by Valerie Neal. And it is just fantastic. It's such a great book.

[32:50] I love space, I love NASA. And this is just a great book. It really takes you into the lives of these women astronauts.

[32:57] If you happen to be reading Taylor Jenkins Reid's Atmosphere, it pairs very well with that fiction book.

[33:04] And it's just. It's a great history. It's really well told.

[33:07] Cindy: Did you read the Six?

[33:09] Nathalia: I did. Oh, that's such a great book. I loved that one.

[33:12] Cindy: I love that one, too. So this one sounds a little bit like that. I'm gonna have to track it down. Cause I love anything related to space.

[33:18] Nathalia: Yes. This is even sort of like the 6, but on a bit of a wider scope, I would say It's. Oh, it's fascinating. It's really well done.

[33:26] Cindy: Okay, good. Well, both of those sound great. And we spend a lot of time at the Natural History Museum in New York. Because my daughter goes to college in New York City and she loves that museum.

[33:35] So I'm gonna have to track down a copy of that book because she'll love it and I will love it.

[33:38] Nathalia: I think you will. It's really good. It's well done. It's so different than I expected and I just loved it.

[33:44] Cindy: Okay, good. Well, it was wonderful to chat with you. I can't wait for your book to be out in the world and to tell everyone I know to read it.

[33:51] Nathalia: Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate you talking to me about all of these things. And thanks so much.

[33:56] Cindy: Absolutely.

[34:00] Thank you so much for listening to my podcast. I would love to connect with you on Instagram or Facebook where you can find me at Thoughts from a page. If you enjoy the show and have a moment to rate it or subscribe to it, wherever you listen to your podcasts,

[34:12] I would really appreciate it. It makes a huge difference. And please tell all of your friends about Thoughts from a Page. Word of mouth does wonders to help the show grow.

[34:21] The book discussed in this episode can be purchased at my bookshop storefront and the link is in the show notes. I hope you'll tune in next time.